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FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

Last post 09-23-2008, 3:11 PM by Mike Gibbs. 11 replies.
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  •  09-16-2008, 3:50 PM 17489

    FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

    Have you ever noticed that if you fly VOR radials based on the headings listed in a FSX flightplan, it doesn't quite match up with the flight plan course line on the GPS? Or that if you fly the headings listed on the flight plan, even when you are navigating by GPS you will go off course?

    Turns out that, at least for the areas I've been flying, the courses listed between waypoints (VORs or intersections) are usually 2-5 degrees off from what they should be.  I figured maybe it was just that the datum they used for the FSX map was different or something, so I tried a little experiment.  I loaded my flight plan from KIAD to KCAK, which goes from AML -> TRIXY -> GRV.  In the map view I put the plane on the GPS flight plan course line right over the "TRIXY" intersection, which (per the appropriate IFR enroute chart on Skyvector) is on the 300 radial "FROM" AML VOR.  I went into the cockpit, tuned in AML, twisted the OBS and sure enough the needle was centered on 300.  The flight plan listed the course from AML to TRIXY as 303.

    I tried it again with the course from TRIXY to the GRV VOR...Skyvector listed the radial ("TO" GRV) as 310, which agreed with the VOR needle in the cockpit.  The FSX flight plan listed that course as 315.

    So, there's obviously a difference there that will impact you whether you are flying VOR radials or choosing your own courses to fly on a GPS flight plan (autopilot following GPS would not be affected).  Does anybody know what gives?  Has anybody found themselves right on the radial indicated in the flight plan but way off the GPS trackline because of this?  Fortunately, Skyvector provides the right airway radial info for the US but my concern is once I start flying internationally!

     Thanks -


    Matt Smith - WWA2218
    Washington DC (KIAD) Hub
  •  09-16-2008, 6:20 PM 17492 in reply to 17489

    Re: FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

    Hey Matt,

    The difference between your indicated heading and actual heading is due to the winds. If you have a 20 knot crosswind your headings will differ due to the wind pushing you sideways across the sky. To show this better just customize your weather and put winds at 0 and both indications will match up.

    Hopefully this helps.


    Matthew
    WWA2078
    KCVG AHM
    SENIOR CAPTAIN
    ZLA I-03 QUALIFIED
  •  09-17-2008, 7:40 AM 17500 in reply to 17492

    Re: FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

    I think we're talking about courses on the chart vs. the course the gps is telling you.  Keep in mind that the charts are based on one representation or projection of the earth, while the GPS figures the great circle between all the waypoints, this is likely leading to the discrepancy you are seeing.

    An interesting tidbit, if you take off from Anchorage and fly an indicated heading of 090 degrees (assuming no wind), where will you exit the continent of N. America (cross the shoreline)?



    EHAM-YSSY B772LR
  •  09-17-2008, 2:30 PM 17521 in reply to 17500

    Re: FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

    Kim is right that what I'm trying to describe here is that if you choose a VOR radial  based on the course listed under 'hdg' in the FSX navlog, you will follow a different track over the ground compared to the same flight plan in the GPS and will not end up at the next waypoint. In the example above, it says fly 303 magnetic for 32.9 miles to go from ARMEL VOR to TRIXY.  If you set your VOR or HSI to "303" and fly whatever heading to compensate for wind and stay on that radial (that is, exactly following a ground track of 303M) you will wave to TRIXY as it sails by your left wing, because it lies on the AML 300 radial.

    I gave some thought to the great circle vs. rhumb line differences, but I'm not sure that is what is causing this particular problem. One leg of my flight plan is 10 miles and the navlog's course is 4 degrees different from the radial.  Seems like an awfully large correction for such a short leg. Likewise, I don' t think that FSX takes winds into account when it calculates the heading because the difference is consistently 3-5 degrees despite the direction that you are flying, but I'll need to tinker with it some more to confirm these things.

    The bottom line though is that for the guy who wants to fly old school using VORs in a place where no online charts are available (basically anywhere outside of the US), how do we know which radial to fly if FSX isn't giving us accurate info? Like, if you flew from VOR1 to another that was due west of it, call it VOR2...following the 270 "from" VOR1 radial halfway there, when you tuned in the 270 "to" radial for VOR2, the needle would show you to be way off.  Seems like that would get pretty annoying.

    Maybe I'll just have to use the GPS overseas and not worry about it.


    Matt Smith - WWA2218
    Washington DC (KIAD) Hub
  •  09-17-2008, 7:31 PM 17530 in reply to 17521

    Re: FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

    Are you going to fly on VATSIM?  If not just plug in your departure airport and arrival airport into FS and fly using the FS ATC and be bored out of your mind for a few hours.  
    Scott Williams
    WWA 1404
    Command Captain KBOS
    Commercial ASMEL Instrument
    CFI #1876545
  •  09-17-2008, 8:09 PM 17531 in reply to 17530

    Re: FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

    I am not sure I am following all this, but if you are getting your headings by plotting them on a chart, remember that you have to correct for magnetic variation on the chart. Again, I have not gone back and read everything in the posts but that sounds like a likely cause of your problems. Also, you need to know that when flying between two VOR's that are say 100 miles apart, the heading can vary as much as a degree or two between when you leave one VOR and arrive at the next one. It is just the nature of the beast. Navigating the way you are doing it was never designed to be able to pick a single heading and stay with it. You have to adjust every so often because of the various things that have been menitoned here.

    WWA1702 Senior Command Captain +3
    RWP SEL Instrument Rating (almost)
    WW Test Pilot
    Monster Driver
  •  09-18-2008, 3:20 PM 17547 in reply to 17531

    Re: FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

    Guys;

    Thanks for all the good input.  I did a few more little experiments and I know a good bit about charting etc (used to be a ship navigator) and I think I've ruled out every possibility (great circle, winds, or variation) that might explain the differences I'm seeing.

    The FSX map matches the IFR charts, which match what I'm measuring in the cockpit (VOR readouts and GPS).  The only thing that doesn't match is the suggested heading listed in the FSX flight plan for any particular leg...so I'm just chalking it up to a problem with that part of the software and driving on.

    Thanks again and "I'll see you out there".

     PS - Scott, at some point I'll make the leap to VATSIM...not ready yet though.


    Matt Smith - WWA2218
    Washington DC (KIAD) Hub
  •  09-22-2008, 8:36 AM 17598 in reply to 17547

    Re: FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

    One more detail I figured out this weekend - the courses in the flightplan are accurate for the legs that are listed as D-->...it is only off on the legs that are listed as part of an airway.

    Pretty much nails it down as an FSX flight planner calculation anomaly.


    Matt Smith - WWA2218
    Washington DC (KIAD) Hub
  •  09-22-2008, 6:00 PM 17601 in reply to 17500

    Re: FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

    VPCargo:

    if you take off from Anchorage and fly an indicated heading of 090 degrees (assuming no wind), where will you exit the continent of N. America (cross the shoreline)?

    I didn't believe it until someone showed it to me on our fms, but you'll cross into the Gulf of Mexico near Brownsville if you do this, and there is no wind........



    EHAM-YSSY B772LR
  •  09-22-2008, 7:17 PM 17604 in reply to 17601

    Re: FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

    VPCargo:
    VPCargo:

    if you take off from Anchorage and fly an indicated heading of 090 degrees (assuming no wind), where will you exit the continent of N. America (cross the shoreline)?

    I didn't believe it until someone showed it to me on our fms, but you'll cross into the Gulf of Mexico near Brownsville if you do this, and there is no wind........

    [edited] And I have some land in Louisiana I would like to sell. Are you pulling our collective legs? I took off from Anchorage, put it on 16x and ended up in Greenland. Never entered the U.S. I did have a 10 kt wind from 330 degrees when I took off but I can't imagine it would make that much difference.

    Now if you tell me you took off heading 090 and followed a great circle route then I can believe Brownsville but the heading would change enroute.



    WWA1702 Senior Command Captain +3
    RWP SEL Instrument Rating (almost)
    WW Test Pilot
    Monster Driver
  •  09-23-2008, 4:09 AM 17608 in reply to 17604

    Re: FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

    Yea when we put PANC in the fms and then give it a line to draw that starts on a 090 bearing it ends up in texas, I saw it on the screen but I still have trouble believing it, I would think the heading would have to change as you said to follow the great circle.  I'll have to ask the guy who showed me when I see him again......he's an instructor and they can be devilish sometimes......


    EHAM-YSSY B772LR
  •  09-23-2008, 3:11 PM 17615 in reply to 17608

    Re: FlightPlan Course problem in FSX

    Well, you had me going for a bit. Then I started thinking about it and I thought they must have meant great circle route. I actually thought you might be trying to see how many people would bite. Cool



    WWA1702 Senior Command Captain +3
    RWP SEL Instrument Rating (almost)
    WW Test Pilot
    Monster Driver
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